Saturday, February 18, 2012

ADULT OPPOSITIONAL DEFIANCE DISORDER

This is some quick brain-storming about ADULT “oppositional defiance disorder,” which doesn’t show up on Google lists. ODD in adults: short fuse: impatience, rage, frustration, fear, confusion, contradiction. BUT sometimes visionary, idealistic, willing to sacrifice for a higher goal. Outlier in terms of emotion: too sensitive or overloads easily. Pain: thrashing to escape.

I’ve been throwing around the phrase “oppositional defiance disorder” too much and thought I’d better stop long enough to reflect about what I mean and why it’s coming to mind. When I google, all I find is stuff about children and promotions for “magic cures,” discipline “systems” to make all resistance to parental control go away. How to make your child a zombie.

Not far from this town was a private “school” for such children that was closed down because the magic wand was a stock prod. You see? That’s my attitude right there -- braced against authority figures, assuming that they will resort to punishment, even torture.

I remember being in faculty meetings where the principal was reading his latest list of edicts -- the same ones he had already handed out to us earlier in the day in printed form -- with me sighing, rolling my eyes, and kicking the chair in front of me. I was fired, of course. The students had the same attitude with ME being the stupid authority figure. But I couldn’t fire them, strike them, or even criticize them, One of those “magic system” teams came in to give us a lecture on how to set up detention, time-delays, elaborate systems of record-keeping that took up teaching energy and time and became an absorbing game for some kids.

Most of us know the developmental phase that all children go through when they oppose everything. “Would you like some ice cream?” NOOOOOO. It appears to be a kind of brain growth stage when some little processing station is either not quite online or is not properly connected up yet. The cooperation bump. It is frustrating for the parent -- and sometimes legitimately dangerous for the child. (“Look out for that car!” NOOOOO. Thump.) I wouldn’t be surprised to see that unaccounted-for child death stats spike at that age. A few children never get past that stage, especially if trauma is the suppressor the parent chooses to use to resolve the conflict. Intimidation is paralyzing.

Sometimes, I believe, the child, the teen, and the grown-up have this so-called “disorder” thrust upon them by the situation. Something is wrong -- anything from molestation to broad social injustice. The incorrigible kid, the freaked-out shooter, and the self-immolating nun seem different when considered from their own points of view, which is not the point of view of the authority figure or even society as a whole. These miracle discipline systems the snake oil salesmen invent are to sell to the authorities, not to those who defy them. Authorities have resources, like money. Oppositionally defiant individuals usually have nothing but their own minds, bodies and emotions.

In my own mental and emotional life, I see that my defiance of authorities is usually fueled by contempt at their incompetence, frustration that they can’t seem to understand what appears obvious to me, and indignation that they refuse to even talk about problems. This same dense principal was forcing us to write new curricula for the school and he wanted it in grade stair-steps. I wanted to write mine in strands: a reading sequence, a writing sequence, a listening sequence and so on. This was because kids who flunked English ended up taking three grades at once so I wanted to run a sort of one-room schoolhouse strategy. He couldn’t understand the concept so he opposed it. I don’t just mean he opposed the idea -- he could not understand that learning is not necessarily chunked up into grades.

When something like health or income is involved, I escalate, sometimes beyond reason. I mean, the first diagnosis of my marginal diabetes was made by a woman doctor who seemed to think she was entitled to dominate me like a popular high school girl looking for acolytes. I told her off before going to a different doctor, which is risky. After all, a doc can write things in your chart that contaminate how you are seen for many years. “Unstable, non-cooperative.” It can affect one’s access to care and cost a lot of money when the doc orders tests or writes prescriptions.

Clearly, a key issue is trust when one cannot have control. There’s little wonder that we have such a political trust crisis on our hands when so much of our compliance is based on force instead of willing consent. When there is a twenty dollar penalty for not having enough money to pay a bill, the temptation to play “uproar” is hard to resist. Surely there are better ways.

When I forget to cover my reactions and obviously bristle, some people come in closer and reach for control. Those fearful of sharing my punishment back away. Solidarity is threatened, which is hard on visionaries and idealists trying to force change. Did I say “force”?

By isolating myself in a small village where population density is thin, I can be far more of an outlier, a nonconforming person who is supersensitive about some things, easily overloaded by obligation and guilt. I have time to ponder and tease out the threads of something like oppositional defiance disorder. One thing I see is how easily an ODD person is controlled by their own automatic reactions. If you want them to go left, tell them to go right. The more subtle and alert will realize they are being controlled. But then they will tell even sympathetic persons the opposite of what they mean. They say they are fine when they are not and become enraged if you can’t tell they are NOT fine. It’s the confusion and automaticity of the strategy that keeps it from working better.

In the end the opposition and the defiance can either become exhausted disengagement or a thrashing desperation to escape the trap, to force someone else to take hold and resolve an intolerable and unjust torture. The best of all outcomes might be when the global situation shifts enough to open the jaws of the trap. That might mean a medical breakthrough, an economic reframing, or a social revolution. I have heard of schools or nursing homes where a team of concerned persons convene with the suffering “acting out” individual to evaluate and redesign terms. Isn’t that like a family? Sometimes they include family.

I don’t get into fist fights, but I’m hypervigilant, a compressed spring, tenacious, and waiting. Taking notes. Always writing as a way of getting at the truth. Stubborn.

32 comments:

Rebecca Clayton said...

As I understand it, oppositional defiant disorder is a diagnosis for children. (I first heard of it when I was substituting in our local school system. These were the kids no one else would substitute with.)

A social worker friend of mine explained the diagnosis to me thus: "It exists because no one writing the DSM has the heart to diagnose anyone under the age of 15 as a sociopath."

These were young kids that tortured and killed pets, set fires, would fly into rages and assault teachers much larger than they. I'm pretty sure they were the victims of horrible abuse.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree of self-diagnosis (but I'm no mental health professional).

Mary Strachan Scriver said...

I take your point, Rebecca, but to some extent that's what I was writing against. Defining kids this way, even not wanting to call them sociopaths, gives permission to restrict and punish them in extreme ways without trying to find out what is wrong. It's not different from shaking and breaking infants when not being able to quiet them from crying. A social worker friend of MINE, who works with teens, says the whole oppositional defiance disorder thing is a con to promote "discipline" gimmicks. No one wants to take on those abusive parents. And his opinion is that defiance and opposition are natural and valuable ways of separating from the previous generation.

BUT there is also the possibility of very bad behavior due to some organic defect, maybe the result of physical discipline.

BUT there is also a whole culture based on being defiant, obscene, destructive, and oppositional. There is a moral element. Heavy metal rock is moral.

The mental health professional verdict on me is usually "borderline personality disorder," which is a junk category meaning "she refuses to conform." Among other things.

Prairie Mary

Susan said...

Your page came up when looking this up from a Law and Order, CI episode. It is Jeff Goldblum episode called In Treatment.

His explaination in a support group setting after the psychiatrist offhand diagnosed him with Adult ODD and something else: "I feel a compulsion to judge, people and situations, to solve puzzles, to asign blame; just trying to asign the truth but other people think I'm being hostile."

I usually just get accused of being stuborn and that I push. Usually for me I just need to clarify things, understand why they are as they are. I am fine with authority that makes sense and works well, but if it doesn't I do challenge it.

Mary Strachan Scriver said...

Exactly. You are very much like me in this. I'm offended by authority figures who haven't earned it and then they react to challenges by trying to crush me -- or at least discredit me. The result is not pretty.

There are a great many people in leadership and management who essentially have very little confidence -- some of them with good reason. If they can point to a good goal, I'm completely on their side.

Prairie Mary

The Incomer said...

I know nothing about ODD as a medical label but I do know that the vast majority of the world's population have some very unreasonable fixed ideas. Those of us who can see quite clearly their stupidity are labelled as oppositionally defiant because we dare to strike a debate which they can't handle.

Anonymous said...

my daughter hit the spoon out of my hand at 5 months and insisted on trying to feed herself, unsuccessfully for a long time, ever since. At 24 she rails against assistance of any type no matter how much she needs it....flies off the handle and into rages when in a 'bad'mood....Exhausting on her family. What is this?

Anonymous said...

I have actually just turned twenty and am about to get married in December. last night after a heated argument about something completely pointless I realised there was something wrong but I wasn't sure what it was. this morning I had completely forgotten about my rage last night and stumbled upon a case study and an explanation about ODD but again it related only to children, but I think it definitely applies to adults as well.

pretty much all of the symptoms apply to me and as you said in your post it gets triggered when people don't realise things that are obvious to you. that is true for me too and come to think of it there are actually a number of things that set me off so quickly. thank you for this post though, it helped me realise what is actually "wrong" with me.

Do you have any suggestions though on how to handle it?

Mary Strachan Scriver said...

This old post gets a LOT of hits, many more than leave comments, so you're not alone. Go to a counselor. Find out if there is someone in your area who specializes in anger management. A group may be better than one person.

You will probably have to undo some conditioning (bad habits), plus find answers to what pressures you, plus there may be some ways to damp down "hot wiring" so you don't go off easily.

It's not impossible but it needs to be fixed BEFORE marriage.

Prairie Mary

Anonymous said...

My ex & daughter (now 25) who both have ODD. The ex mellowed in his mid-20's as far as the temper fits went but never got over the need to feel like he was rebelling against someone - and I became a substitute for a parent. That was really tough. Took me a while to understand the dynamic & even after I stumbled on info about ODD, I couldn't live with it in the end. We've remained good friends & I have watched him struggle with close relationships. Now I'm watching my talented, super smart daughter have continual problems with jobs & bosses, relationships, etc. ODD is not just for kids, seems to easily subvert even the highest intellect & I don't think a person usually completely outgrows it. Like so many human weaknesses that we have (I'm ADD), you learn coping mechanisms. Thanks for your post, Prairie Mary, it was helpful to me today!

Positive Steph Happens said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mary Strachan Scriver said...

There are so many hits on this post that I've returned to it several times. I'm up to "Part 4" now, which I'll post next week. The titles are all "Oppositional Defiance Disorder".

If this is SUCH a widespread issue, it deserves some time. So far I don't see books or exercises, but maybe strategies . . . It seems to me that too many people don't know how to handle authority except with a kind of force. There have to be ways to shift things away from confrontations.

I've always found discussion groups more helpful than individual counseling. There are more chances to catch the dynamics in action and one has the advantage of several people's angle on it.

Prairie Mary
Mary Scriver

Unknown said...

I'm not a psycologist but my boyfriend displays, temper tantrums (verbally), does things completely unconcious of how it affects others, justifies everything he does and an excuse for everything he doesn't do, blames OMG has to have some one or some thing other than his interaction with the situation, makes constant promisses he never intends on keeping, unless he's gotten a bonus from work or overtime never pays his bills ontime, even has contingencies for getting into work late because he won't get out of his own way.
The other day he was winding a nylon air line in the garage that wasn't co operating, I suggested he rolled it from the other end so he wouldn't have to unroll the whole thing each time. I was then informed of his age (53) that he's not ignorant and it was a cheap hose and that the kids leave it out and causes it to kink (are kids haven't use that hose but a couple of times and left it in better shape then he did, our kids are all 15 and older living elsewhere). I've rolled that hose up myself several times, I don't have a problem with it. Has surgury on his ankle, doesn't follow the doctors orders, askes me for advise, then does the opposite to take swelling down. I have to pay all the bills the minute his check is deposited so bills are paid, because he won't until he gets a shut off notice. Don't get me wrong. The man has a lot of plusses and I do love him or wouldn't put up with this. Any suggestions of launguage to use that would help him to not flounder his life away I would appreciate it. Asking the opposite doesn't work, he is very smart.

Mary Strachan Scriver said...

http://prairiemary.blogspot.com/2013/07/so-whats-wrong-with-nice-potted.html

Above is the url for my most recent thinking about grandiose narcissism. I've posted on the subject quite a bit and there is a LOT of material on the Internet, including some written BY grandiose narcissists -- quite useful, actually.

All of us are a little bit like this -- Dear Abby gets inquiries about it all the time. What's necessary to realize is that you can NOT change other people. There's no magic shazam. The real question is why are you there? Sit down with a good counselor and figure it out. Set your limits, stick to them, and if there is any danger to the children -- including emotional abuse -- your first obligation is to them.

Prairie Mary

"Auntie Jafa" said...

I've just read Russel Barkley's (brief)section on ODD in Adults in his Adult ADHD workbook. ODD in adults is a useful concept - at least in those with ADHD- although not yet an accepted diagnosis (Like ADHD in adults was a few years ago. ODD is what is says- oppositional and defiant, but NOT sadistic- the children described by Rebecca above would surely have conduct disorder?
Barkley speculates that it arises in (ADHD/LD) children when adults expect them to do things they are not yet capable of doing and then punish or criticise them as if their non-compliance is deliberate. If the ADHD or other difficulty is undiagnosed the adult probably thinks it is deliberate. Meantime the child thinks the adult is unfair or stupid or both and probably tells them so, creating an ongoing battle. Hence the lack of respect for and anger against authority figures which can include anyone who tries to tell them to do something, even if well-meaning, and the chronic feeling of being misunderstood.

I found reading Marshall Rosenberg- "the surprising purpose of anger" good because it takes the shame out of being angry and helps you think about meeting your needs and what needs is the other person trying to meet. Also it's quick to read.

Unknown said...

I love an adult who would certainly be diagnosed with ODD. There has been no trauma, no torture, in fact this person had a loving home and a mother he was able to disrespect and walk upon without peep from her. He believes he loves me also and desperately wants me to stay in this relationship but this evident ODD is completely in the way.

One comment in your post was that you get frustrated or angry at incompetence or people who have authority but lack leadership ability (paraphrasing). Knowing this person and how at times his reasoning is so flawed that he truly believes different conversations took place or his mind will create situations where he really feels like he was attacked or horribly wronged, by me of course. The problem is that those things did not happen the way he believes. It never occurs due to an "argument" but anything I say is a disagreement. Lovingly trying to recognize patterns which he does not, I might say "Honey, maybe you are having a tough day, maybe you should get some fresh air and take the dog for a walk" which leads to a vicious attack, more hatefulness and an intense plea from him after I ask him to please not speak to me with such anger and hostility. He then tells me it wasn't what I said but somehow the way I said it which justified the tongue-lashing I just received.

Of course, I am not an authority figure but someone who loves this person but how can I have any sort of relationship with someone who views me as the enemy (even though he does not seem to recognize it)? I wonder how can he justify that my imagined "tone" is worthy of a full on cuss-out? It really takes me back to when my younger brother was a teen and would cuss my mother over nothing but truly believed she was asking for it.

I wonder, have you been diagnosed with this "disorder" professionally? The very fact that you can identify the behavior and your reasons for it seem to be in stark contrast to the criteria for said disorder. In my experience, nothing is ever his fault and there is always someone to blame - which makes him decidedly unreasonable and irrational.

Second question, does this come up in your personal or romantic life, with people you have sought out and chosen to be around?

Mary Strachan Scriver said...

This is a little unequal since I'm identified and you are not, but I'll be honest.

First, I've never been diagnosed with anything "professionally," but plenty of people have offered labels: greedy, narcissistic, borderline, paranoid, self-centered, and so on. These labels are common and most people could be accused of moments of any of them. They're LABELS and have nothing to do with the essential being of a person.

Second, of course this comes up in my personal/romantic life.

Rule one: protect yourself and know your limits. If it becomes clear that you are suffering and in danger, have the courage to leave.

Rule two: If you go for professional help, choose carefully and don't think they know everything. Look for someone who does not blame but rather tries to unravel the forces knotted into the situation.

Prairie Mary

Unknown said...

Oh thank you for responding. I forgot the way I am identified on the web, I am a female in my early 30s and a privacy nut so I set that up after a bad experience commenting on a site and having someone quickly reproduce all my personal information - my first name is Beth. So I do appreciate your response. I have gone through the psychology game myself and it does seem like many have their pet identifications and snap judgments (they love borderline for females while the same male would be anti-social even though both were clearly seeking help therefore contrary to both). The most one can really hope for in therapy is some semblance of self-awareness and a plan for when things go haywire.

I have been dealing with this for about 4 years now and even though it pains me and is certainly inconvenient, I see him suffering as well with this jeckle/hyde persona which seems to lie to him until the next day when he feels deep remorse. I would love to see a post on how this does affect your romantic life (with names removed to protect the innocent or unaware, of course) because its easy to understand spouting off at an ignorant boss, but it is harder (for me at least) to understand the seeming dislike of someone you have chosen for yourself based on (I'm assuming here) genuine like and admiration and hopefully qualities held in common or compliment.

I do know my limits and cannot say I am not close, certainly I do not believe I am in danger, it comes off as mainly spite with intense defensiveness. Mainly I have resolved that even if this is not the person I am meant to be with "forever", he is tormented by this issue and I would like to help him become aware of what is happening so that if he does want a romantic partner in the future, he doesn't lose someone who really brought better quality to his life.

I only found your blog (?) today, are there more posts related to this issue in other aspects of life, or anything related to your journey to becoming self-aware regarding your own issues, faults or short-comings?

Thank you,

-Beth

Mary Strachan Scriver said...

Beth, I hope I remembered to tag the posts that were about this issue.

My first, last, and only marriage was to Bob Scriver in the Sixties. The friendship went on after the marriage ended. The book I wrote about Bob's life is called "Bronze, Inside and Out." It's on Amazon. It was a complicated problem to unravel because I was a year younger than his daughter, the third of four wives (the others had it worse) and was tied to a skyrocketing career as a sculptor. He's dead now -- born in 1914.

I'm 76. This whole blog is about my adventures, but because I was in the UU ministry for ten years, some of it is in unpublished sermons, etc.

The current PBS series called "Home Fires" includes a relationship something like what you describe. In fact, literature is PACKED with this theme! Ask a good librarian. Sometimes they're more useful than a therapist.

Prairie Mary

Unknown said...

Excellent, I will look the books up (likely the series as well - more partial to literature than television). Unfortunately, it seems the answer may be years and wisdom as to the understanding of self. Thank you so much for helping me, help him, help myself, along this journey called life.

Raven albatross said...

Wow. I srarted reading this as research to understand my sons father and found that the both of us display opposite sides of this. Starting at the beginning, I have looked up before narcissism and sociopathy for myself I found myself as more of a manic depressive or somewhat spontaneous raged. Myself personally I've always been one to constantly to research and write down the questions and get the answers for them. It seems like 29 to be 30 next month I have excelled in one so-called career in my life which is being a student and not just 4 my degree business management which actually I stop short 6 credit hours of obtaining. And now have close to a hundred k in student loan debt. But also I have noticed since a freak accident where I flipped my car on the highway and crawled out of my upside down car with only a scratch on my thumb knuckle that I went into a tramatic like withdraw from reality. Weird thing is for two months after the accident (when i became so recluse that i ended up diagnosed agoraphobic as well as manic depressive, which is a form of bipolar).
But he weird thing is that at the beginning of all of this, about 8 months ago, my man started noticing being followed by the same cars with different people in them. And he is also very smart but, hearing this and being a sort of laid back individual in general, I honestly dismissed his claims and told him not to look for it. It continued and slowly he was coming home from work more and more uhhh scared or quote paranoid or he would talk about it for hours. Until eventually I wanted to get out of our place and I went with him to walmart or mcy d's or something and while he was driving he would be able to name what cars would be there b4 we were there or he would point out a car and say theres one and still i brushed it off... But just for instance we went through a drive through and he'd point out the car behind us and sure enough they wouldnt even order but stay in line behind us. And when we would pull in a spot to eat so would they. AND THEN when we left they left too. So i started getting intrigued and began watching closer and sure enough... Usually there would be about 2 cars that were noticably following us until we got somewhere... Then one would park and stay and the other would go inside (seeminly normally) but if you watched them they would always be an aisle over and like on their phone not even shopping... It just got worse from there.
For me I didnt really mind bc I was inside most of the time (my parents ended up watching our son so dont think we subjected him to anything) but for him... He is a subcontractor so he drives A LOT and it seemed like the worse it got would equal the worse they got (to eventually not even try to hide it and even make it obvious... There would be an odd couple walking down the street while he would be working outside and they would say things like, is that him or hes just working on his truck.... Obviously talking about him. And we have always balanced each other out so i would always try to see it as a fluke and put his mind to ease but eventually i couldnt deny it. It was happening and a lot...

Raven albatross said...

So say two months of this goes on and me being me i research and research and find an article on gangstalking.... Which is 100% real but not for the reasons people think... But long story short... I dont know how far along he is compared to my situation bc even to this day i cant work and have no car and stopped watching tv and only listen to music i have downloaded, ive learned that something triggered our awakening. I know it sounds wierd but just look it up. Its really messed the Ef up! But niether him nor I would take that fact back if we could... I meditate sometimes for hours in silence and he likes to siy in his truck quiet and think so we both are on different phases....

But the point. My theory(and one thing ive learned is that my theories from countless hours of research... Not on youtube or wiki btw... Usually hold true but turn out to be BC of. Something I wasnt shown yet... Nothing seen that hasnt been shown-lennon) is that this odd has a lot to do with america and actually the world waking up. The frequency coming from the tv and radio and now cell phone towers can only work for so long on so many generations untill we build up a tolerance.... The doctors think odd could be genetic but if you think about it when we are in a fetus those waves are going through us too as well as our parents and the same thing happened to them .... This has been going on for many generations now.... But i need to quit. Please read with seriousness and research. Learn and think meditate and think and turn the damn tv OFF limit the radio... Meditate and think... Please. I need company here. So very bad. Wake up. . .

Raven albatross said...

Im sorry. I rewrote it. I tend to type fast and send quick when I talk about this. But I know I am here, on this website, for a reason.
Wow. I started reading this as research to understand my sons father and found that the both of us display opposite sides of Oppositional Defiant Disorder. Starting at the beginning, in the past I have looked up narcissism and sociopathy for myself and him both and I found myself being more bipolar-manic depressive or somewhat spontaneously raged and I really couldn't pin point anything for him. For one reason- Im not even close to a psychiatrist and for two- he always fit into the catagories but not how or for the reasons behind those disorders. Then, a few nights ago I was watching really late night entertainment tv and they had a mom and son on who had wrote a book about ODD and when they went into how it affected them and how they acted because of it, I was in full blown epiphany mode.
I've always been one to constantly have questions and to research and write down the question for the answers to the first set of questions and then spend hours researching to get the answers for them. It seems like to me, being 29 years old going on 30 next month, I have excelled in only one so-called career in my life: being a student. This does not mean solely for academics, like my four year Business degree (which actually I didn't even complete that ending up short 6 credit hours of obtaining)but also being a student of life.
Taking this into consideration, about eight months ago I was in "freak" accident where I flipped my car on the highway and crawled out of the upside vehicle and ended up with only a scratch on my thumb knuckle... That was from crawling through glass to get out. After things settled down I went into a ptsd like withdraw from reality. I ended up quitting my job(where I had just been promoted to the position I had worked for for almost 2 years), I had no car, at this time we had no tv and my phone ended up getting wet.  I spent most of the day meditating and painting with acrylics. I went so far down into that routine that by the time 2 months went by I had convinced myself that I had literally died in the car accident and that I was in Hell. Living my nightmare over and over everyday. Eventually, due to the symptoms of ODD describe, the cops were called on me and they took me to an ER. After that night in the ER the hospital strongly recommend ed I speak with the psychiatrist and I agreed. He diagnosed me, after being brutally honest, agoraphobic as well as manic depressive, which is a form of bipolar).

Raven albatross said...

But the weird thing is, almost immediately after the accident, my man started telling me that he was noticing the same cars everywhere he went with different people in them.
Like another post stated about their ODD spouse, he is also very smart but, hearing this after just starting a rigorous mental recovery myself, I honestly dismissed his claims and told him not to look for it. This continued and then slowly he was coming home from work more and more uhhh scared or quote paranoid or he would talk about it for hours.
Eventually I wanted to get some fresh air and out of our place so I went with him to walmart or mcy d's or something. While he was driving he would call out what cars would be where we were going b4 we were there or he would point out a car and say there's one but still i brushed it off... But just for instance we went through a drive through and he'd point out the car behind us and sure enough they wouldnt even order but stay in line behind us. And when we would pull in a spot to eat so would they. THEN when we left they left too. So now I was intrigued and began to watch closer and sure enough...

Usually there would be about 2 cars that were noticably following us until we got somewhere... Then one would park and stay in the car and the other would go inside (seeminly normally) but if you watched them they would always be an aisle over and like on their phone not even shopping... It just got worse from there.

For me I didnt really mind bc I was inside most of the time (my parents ended up watching our son so dont think we subjected him to anything) but for him... He is a subcontractor and drives A LOT. It seemed like the worse he got, fed the worse they got (eventually not even try to hide it and even making it obvious... On purpose.)
There would be an odd couple who did not live on our street walking by while he worked outside of our place and they would say things like, is that him or he's just working on his truck.... Obviously talking about him. We have always balanced each other out so i would always try to see it as a fluke and put his mind at ease, but eventually i couldn't deny it. It was happening and happening a lot...

Raven albatross said...

So about two months of this goes on and me being me I research and research and find an article on gangstalking.... Which is 100% real, but not for the reasons people think. Long story short... I do not know how far along he is in his journey  compared to my situation bc even to this day I cant work and have no car ive learned that something triggered our awakening. I know it sounds wierd but all you literally have to do is look it up. Its really messed the Ef up!
But niether him nor I would take that fact back if we could...
Now,I meditate sometimes for hours in silence and he likes to sit in his truck quiet and think; so the two of us are on different phases of our awakening.

But the point. My theory (and one thing I've learned from the 8 months and counting of this event is that my theories that are given to me from countless hours of research... Not on YouTube or wiki btw... usually hold true, but turn out to be for a reason I hadn't been shown yet... "Nothing seen that hasn't been shown" -Lennon) is that this Disorder has a lot to do with America- and actually the world- "waking up." Simply put, the frequency that comes from the tv and radio and now cell phone towers can only work for so long on so many generations untill we build up a tolerance.... The doctors think ODD could be genetic, but if you think about it... when we are just a fetus, those waves are going through us as well as our parents. And the same thing happened to them.... (This has been going on for many generations now....

Please read with seriousness and research anything and everything. Learn. And think, meditate and think.

Turn the damn television OFF!!!
Limit the radio... Meditate and think... Please. I need company here. So very bad. Open your eyes, the alarm is and has been going off and its time to wake up...

Mary Strachan Scriver said...

I'm getting a series of comments from "Raven Albatross" that are too long and complex to be answered in comments. Therefore, I'm writing a response today that should be posted by lunch time. I'll make these points here and then go back to the longer form.

1. ODD people are not alone. As this series of comments shows, there are enough to make an online support group practical. So many problems have been addressed that way and at least it's not so lonesome. In the best outcome, research finds answers because people are sharing.

2. ODD is the controlling metaphor of our times. What is terrorism but deadly defiance? But that doesn't mean that someone who refuses to be bullied is a terrorist or even unreasonable defiant.

3. Clearly this is a subject worth exploring. Today is 1-26-17. Post on the subject will be up soon.

Regina said...

I am 21 years old and was diagnosed with ODD when I was 14. I thought it was a complete joke. I laughed at it for years... now I am finding myself taking everything my husband does and turning it into a big deal, blaming him for all of these ridiculous things. my husband is very sarcastic, he always has been. now I make myself believe that he is saying these things as some kind of underlying way to make fun of me, to escalate my emotions.. Today I am going to change, I am going to fix this before its too late...

Mary Strachan Scriver said...

Good for you, Regina. I would encourage you to get a good coach. Doesn't have to be a shrink. It's very hard to change because it's a defense, protecting you some way. They'll have to protect you a bit to help you give it up.

Prairie Mary

pearl1961 said...

I'm not an expert by any means, but I have been married for nearly 30 years to someone who may be on the aspergers side, And at times demonstrates ODD behavior (he's 59). If I were to say what you said above about taking a walk he would be furious. And I can understand why as it is parenting him and no one likes to be patented. Not that I understand the overboard nasty response, but that's just not a helpful suggestion to make as no one having an angry day wants to be given suggestions or treated like a child.

Mary Strachan Scriver said...

MY POLICY FOR COMMENTS IS NEVER TO POST ANONYMOUS COMMENTS. MANY OF THE ONES FROM PEOPLE STRUGGLING WITH ODD OTHERS NEED TO BE ANONYMOUS. USE A PSEUDONYM OR SOMETHING. THIS PROBLEM NEEDS PROFESSIONAL ADVICE ANYWAY. GOOGLE TO FIND SUPPORT GROUPS.

Elizabeth said...

This page was created years ago but thought I'd leave some comments for others who stumble across it.

ODD is associated with ADHD. It's called a comorbity. It's a neurological
problem in the brain and both ADHD and ODD are typically evident in children under 5 years of age. Therapists and doctors are reluctant to diagnose or treat children under 7.

ODD is more common in boys but girls have it too. Roughly half of children with this disorder outgrow it. The rest continue to have problems if left untreated. And I STRONGLY recommend getting treatment - your happiness and others around you, depends on it.

You think It's hard having ODD? Try it from a mother's side when this behavior persists well into adulthood. It's a fucking nightmare that ruined my life.




ODD is extremely hard to treat as people with this disorder resist treatment and are belligerent toward authority figures. But, it CAN be treated, if you are motivated! I recommend a Cognitive Behavioral therapist and try to find someone with additional background in bio or neuropsychology.

Matt said...

Mary,

Thank you for your insight on this topic (ODD). My wife and my mother frequently discuss tactics they have used with me to gain my cooperation on normal tasks/events. One common misconception about this disorder is (for me, at least) it's involuntary. My instinctive reaction to some situations is the opposite of what I know is right. This applies everywhere, work/school/home/store/relationships. Even when hungry on a team building camping trip, I refused food and would not give in. It has been a real challenge for me all my life to brush my teeth daily, take my medicine, be on time to work, normal things for most.

I joined the military in-part to help me be more disciplined and get past my ODD. This only helped while I was serving and a short while after my service had concluded. If something is my idea, I'm 100% motivated and see it through. If something is someone else's idea, I'll drag my feet and resist cooperation.

None of these defiant behavior are part of my normal personality, and most of the time my resistance is quiet and unspoken. Even buying something at the grocery store, every item is second-guessed automatically over and over. I may pick something up and put it back twice.

It's a mental tug of war between what makes logical sense and all the reasons it doesn't make logical sense.

I have found much relief working for a dysfunctional company. Resisting bad decisions before they happen and proving the proper method have made a good name for me, and I have risen the ranks.

I'm also a fierce debater, as I've already mentally mapped out the different angles/merits of any discussion I encounter.

It seems to go like:
Pre-Decision is made.
First instinct is to resist or not make that decision.
Introspection towards what reasons for resistance.
Then either indecision or decision.

As soon as an authoritative figure announces a plan of action, I start taking it apart mentally until I find all the flaws. Then, I speak with the leader one-on-one to discuss the flaws and we take steps to fix them. Sometimes, they're not interested in my thoughts, and I silently refuse to participate further on that project. It seems like fixing their plan of action is in the neutral zone for me, meaning it's acceptable instead of defying as a happy middle position. I suppose I should be grateful that option exists in my screwed up processes.

I hope this adds to the overall discussion, and I'm sorry for commenting years later, but I just found this blog.

Anonymous said...

Big thanks, Matt. I have friends with this same problem and am left to wrestle with what they are saying is "real" or just oppositional. It's an actual thing, but so far I haven't found any research to explain it. Maybe it's a brain switch or maybe it's conditioning in some way. Sometimes I think it is a way to hang on to one's own self instead of just being a figment of someone else.

Similarly, when I "proof" things I've written, I find that the negatives (no, not, neither) are not there, so I thought I typed them in because that's what I thought. Maybe it's a default that won't "de-". But I shouldn't kid around. I keep thinking about it.

Mary Scriver